Get in the Hog if you want to live!

 
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MrGreenWithAGun
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Invasion: Sacrifice (FW)

Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:27 am

MAP: Sacrifice (Forge World, North Island and Bay)
Version 3

Description: From the mountain top of the Island, Spartans descend upon the Island's North Shore where the Elites have setup base amongst some ancient forerunner ruins.

Mission: Take down the electronic barrier, progress toward and blow open the forward ante-chamber, and extract the Core.

Quick fly through of the map (version 2)


Raw XBOX Film of first test play (version 2). You can download this to your XBOX and view the game play from any angle.

Screen shots

A lot of features of the map and intended game play were inspired by Spire, such as the rocks in Tier 1 having many narrow passages.

The forerunner structure is inspired by a combination of Aiea and Ritual.

Weapons and vehicles, Spire inspired
Defenders
Tier 1: Needle Rifles (2), Plasma Turrets (2)
Tier 2: Plasma Launcher, Focus Rifle, Ghost
Tier 3: Hammer, Fuel Rod, Banshee
Invaders
Tier 2: Rocket Launcher, Sniper, Chain Hog
Tier 3: Falcon

Budget Remaining: Apx $2700

UPDATE Version 3
1. Created two small ramps at front center of platform for hog.
2. Added a few large rocks to edge out to help cushion drop for Alpha Invaders.
3. Moved Invader middle T1 Respawn away from edge of Safe Boundary.
4. Added crates inside pyramid as support aesthetics for weapon spawns.
5. Added loadout cameras (duh...)
6. Removed extra T1 Invader spawn.
7. Fixed label on wall between Antechamber and Elite spawn area.

Quad Split Screen Testing
No frame rate issues observed by any of the following tests.
1. All four looking at water fall through animated electronic barrier.
2. Banshee flying in front of other three, creating explosion, in front of water fall and man cannon.
3. Banshee flying around stationary hovering Falcon, with fourth looking at both and water fall.
Some frame rate issues observed when test 1 was performed and the positions of the players were changed so that more blocks were in their field of view. Same with test 3, but only in specific locations.

.
Last edited by MrGreenWithAGun on Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:55 pm, edited 8 times in total.
 
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Re: Invasion: Sacrifice (FW)

Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:04 pm

I Like what I see Mr. Green, hopefully we get to run a game on it soon.
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Re: Invasion: Sacrifice (FW)

Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:44 am

Thanks to Blaq Cloud and others who helped me test this map. I updated the map with the feedback received, now it is up to version 3 on my fileshare.
 
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Re: Invasion: Sacrifice (FW)

Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:29 am

MrGreenWithAGun wrote:
Thanks to Blaq Cloud and others who helped me test this map. I updated the map with the feedback received, now it is up to version 3 on my fileshare.


::green2:: The map played swimmingly, third phase was a little tough as neither team seemed to have completed it. I loved the 1 phase spawning on the hill it gave us counter strike ability as the elites were entrenched in rocks. The aesthetics fit the theme, however I would recommend a better mixture of rocks, as they look like you placed the same rock every where. If you could work out a more natural looking mixture of rocks that would provide great eye appeal to the map.

Suggestions IMO:

PH1:
Provide PH1 fire team with 1 or 2 DMRs to attack with, as the elites had needle rifles and needlers for defense. Some of the PH1 respawns were too far a field, and required long hikes back. 1 or two of them were on the edge of soft kill zones which gave me a 1 second count every time I spawned. I fear if someone was AFK they would repeatedly fall to their death.

PH2&3:

Spawning and weapons were good, as we were in direct LOS of vehicle off spawn (spartans). While I would suggest adding a ramp for warthog to more easily get onto the structure and be involved more. Spawn cam for Elites IMO should face weapons or vehicles of interest, as they were missed not knowing where they were off respawn.

As a whole I like it a lot, just some minor tweaks would kick it over the top. Look forward to play testing the next update.
Last edited by Blaq Cloud on Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Invasion: Sacrifice (FW)

Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:46 pm

Updated the thread with pics and the raw film of the first game play.

I added the ramp as you all asked, it is a couple of rocks making it far easier to get a hog up to the platform, but I could not find an easy ramp made of blocks that looked nice. I think people will enjoy taking the rock ramp as it is sort of fun.

I will put off adding DMRs for T1 for now. I would like to get HWM to test this and give me their feedback. I wanted the weapon selection to be like Spire T1, and I don't think a DMR would be a good break from that pattern. But again, I will wait for more feedback on this issue.
 
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Re: Invasion: Sacrifice (FW)

Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:58 pm

I'm SO glad that we are past the point of explaining fireteam spawning and giving elites spartan weapons and using all of FW, etc. Thank you SO much for making this map! Now, lets get down to it and focus on what DOES need work. Its a cute map but first you need to decide on what your goal is: Casual Custom Lobby kids, Serious Face Invasion Pros, or Split the Uprights-Everyone should Love it and it should be in MM OMGZORZ.

I haven't had a chance to play it yet but from watching your flythrough it looks very small. Too small. Map makers tell me quite often that they want their map to be "Fast Paced" and "Action Packed" but all I hear is "I want people to die MOAR!" "MOAR explosions". I don't want to die more and I don't want to be able to kill people any faster than the HWM already do, its hard enough to finish a game without the other team quitting out entirely. Anyway, moving on, 6 platform XXL's isn't very wide, I've tried something similar and it came close to working because I gave each fireteam 2 platforms to themselves and left about "2 platforms" worth of empty gulch between them all... think of the letter "E". Maybe you could do the same by using a grid or walls just under the water that way there could be playable area in between the XXLs. Thats about how much space you need. Its an unwritten rule, we really should write this down, that fireteams should be about a sprint apart, depending on the map. Breakpoint is MUCH closer together initially but them widens back out to a standard distance.

You obviously want this map to play small, and thats okay, but I think that if the core is pulled then the attackers will win easily since its only about 22 seconds to the cap point (it should be at least 30). UNLESS, the defenders feel that their only defense is a good offense and push up to spawn kill. The structure is SO small that elites with evade/bubble and Nerf could patrol the entry ways with great success. But if they weren't able to do that before the core was pulled I think the spartans could death walk the core regardless of whatever the elites were doing.

Without playing it, we can see that it lacks in height. I'm a stickler for changes in height and verticality, this map has practically none. Yes, I know you said you just had to add ramps but come on, for a playlist that has Spire and Boneyard this map has essentially 2 levels: the land paradiso on P1/XXL's P2+p3 and then the Rocks P1/Ledges in P2+3. A banshee would get torn apart buy a decent group of spartans and it basically renders jetpackers inert. All things flying aside it brings gameplay down a notch, like stooping to a joust instead of a beautifully choreographed Jet-li sword fight. I like watching a joust every now and again but I wouldn't vote to play it a 3rd time if this map were in MM. Think of the height changes in maps like Narrows, The Pit, Guardian, Damnation, Last Resort, Lock Out, Waterworks, Sidewinder etc. Subtle ramps, grav lifts, steep inclines, pro jumps, terrain. Any good FPS map needs 3 different height levels, at least in certain areas. These levels need to be affected differently by OTHER positions at different heights. It allows for dynamic, 3 dimensional, strategic gameplay, instead of head butting each others bullets over and over again. Chess > Tic Tac Toe For your map think about Phase 2 Spire.

Also, and this isn't a deal breaker, why is the structure off center? With 6 XXLs you'd think it would be easy to center it but you seem to have added the extra set as an after thought...

Lastly, why would you add a hammer? Its a silly thing, to squabble over brute weaponry being in the hand of a Covenant warrior, but it seems an odd weapon to add considering loadouts include a sword. With regards to target audience this one clearly goes to casual custom lobby players. In other weapon news, i think you are right to hold off adding DMR's. If anything you could reduce the respawn time or clip size of the Nerf but that depends on how future play tests go.
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Re: Invasion: Sacrifice (FW)

Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:05 am

I spent some time walking on this earlier and I agree with Luv Gunn.

Additional concerns I have include the Ghost spawning separate from the Banshee, the use of the Spartan shield doors for what is supposed to be an Elite structure, and the congested corridors that make up the Elite "base." You also had bomb in the video, and I'm sorry but bomb just doesn't work in standard Invasion because you can't set separate arming and detonation timers like they are on Breakpoint.

However, I will say that it does look and play like an Invasion map in the sense that many of the basic concepts are present on the map.
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Re: Invasion: Sacrifice (FW)

Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:24 am

Thanks luv gunn, you gave me a lot to work on.

But I have one important question for both of you. I could widen it, elevate it, etc., but would it be something that has potential, or should I just chuck it?

Also, I decided that T2 will be Territories, because Able told me that the bomb could indefinitely stall the game if it fell in the water. I did not know that the shields were Spartan, since they were used for Elites on Spire - but your comments make me realize that they are orange, like the core is red/orange. And the structure is off center because I wanted to make this asymmetrical, like Boneyard is asymmetrical. (Note I had the rock bridge on one side but not the other.)

I used the principle structure from Aiea, which is a 4v4 map, since it was a very fast paced game environment. I thought that people would enjoy it and the feedback is that they do. But I can see you do not agree that it should be so face paced in MM Invasion, that is fine. I can find ways to widen the encounters.

If I had more XXL platforms, I would have used them to make the platform larger. I wanted it as large as possible.

I didn't get a sense from either of you that the T1 was weak in its design?? I spent a lot of time working on making T1 play where the defense had to work hard at cutting off the invaders at many narrow channels to the objectives and the invaders many encouraging paths where there would be cover followed immediately with two or more options to move in.

My goal has been and remains (1) learn how to make the best possible map for the category I am forging for (in this case it is Invasion, but in another case it was 4v4); and (2) get my map into MM.
 
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Re: Invasion: Sacrifice (FW)

Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:56 pm

I widened the platform at the expense of the depth into the bay. I then used Coliseum walls to form the flooring for the interior of the structure. Instead of the structure looking like it sat on the platform, the platform now looks like an approach to the structure and the structure wraps a bit around the platform.

I now have three levels through out the structure. I am playing with building out the interior and subtle variations of levels/tunnels, etc. But I want to respect my budget and the frame rate. It was due to frame rate issues that I wound up eroding the near end of the base to just some walls and doorways, and I like the feel it presents.

In one of the two concept images I built out the back of the base pretty far and build spawn rooms along the back edge, but I think that is too far back of a structure and I think rooms inside the structure would be better.

Thoughts are WELCOMED!

Concept with deep base and spawn rooms
This concept eroded the upper floor and built out toward the falls.

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Alternate concept
This concept has a full upper floor and roof.

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Re: Invasion: Sacrifice (FW)

Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:14 pm

I like the changes you've made with regard to width and height. Of course, now with all the added objects near the waterfall, I think framerate will be an issue but alas, this is the fate on an Invasion Forger. The big problems will be 1.) defenders atop their T3 looking at the spartans spawn and seeing the whole map and 2.) Alpha Attackers on spawn looking towards T2 bravo and being able to see the entire width of the map including the waterfall. It sucks to Forge Invasion, its a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

Everytime I try to forge an Invasion map I swear its my last... and then I try again ::FAIL::

ANYWAY, I'm liking the changes and I'd really like to get a playtest on this map ASAP since I've yet to do so!
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Re: Invasion: Sacrifice (FW)

Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:52 am

Here is my latest concept map.

Image

We are looking at the map from the back of the structure at the bottom of the picture. At the very back is the banshee and middle team spawn. At the left is the eroded Bravo team entrance, and the right forward structure is the Alpha team entrance. The middle structure extending forward into the middle of the platform is also a forward position for anyone to use. Each of these areas can be used to bro spawn. The center forward extension is also to help break up LOS across the platform. The Alpha and Bravo entrances had inspiration from Boneyard Tier 1 (Alpha side is like the Bow/Lobby).


Image

The Core is in a large vault, using 6 round walls. When opened, four walls slide almost entirely out of the way. Those four open, along with their rounded shape, should provide plenty of extraction room. The vault is located under the platform similar to Breakpoint, but the T2 Objectives are more like Spire since you run around the vault from one to the other once you drop down from the platform.
 
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Re: Invasion: Sacrifice (FW)

Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:07 am

What is the point of using the platforms for the floor instead of coliseum walls?
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Re: Invasion: Sacrifice (FW)

Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:06 pm

The original map used only platform XXL as the flooring through out, but was too small. Now the coliseum walls are used as part of the base' flooring through out, even in the center structure that extends into the center of the map. The coliseum walls reflect the interior, while the platforms reflect the exterior, even though much of the interior is exposed. It is and has always been one of aesthetics. I would never consider a map with flooring based exclusively on coliseums walls. Before I did that I would move the entire map to the canyon to use the green grass instead. Or I would submerge the coliseum walls to avoid too much gray, like on Floodgate. I already did this on either end of the base, giving a somewhat eroded feel to the base.

On another note, I was thinking of not parking the banshee in a garage, but leaving it in the open like on Spire. My thinking is that it would make the Banshee a secondary objective for the invaders. This in turn would draw defender resources away from the core and make the game more interesting. And unlike Spire, this core vault is exposed and cannot be camped. Thus, the Banshee is a vital weapon that the defenders must protect.

thoughts?
 
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Re: Invasion: Sacrifice (FW)

Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:45 am

I like the overall layout from what I can see but I still think that FR and lag will be an issue especially since you've nearly doubled the size of your structure and the location of it all.

From the couple of screenshots the core room looks interesting, I'm all for logic and aesthetics. I would suggest you not leave the banshee exposed because the elites would not be equipped to take it down if it were stolen. On maps that have elite attackers the elites can use the left over DMRs from the Tier 1 Spartan defenders. As you know, on Spire its VERY difficult to take down a Banshee once the spartans have jacked it. The Banshee location is one of 2 things that I would even consider changing about the map (the other being the 3rd NeRf on Tier defense). For most players and games this is a not issue but to me it breaks the feel of Invasion since the other 2 maps have the defenders vehicles spawn inside a bay and the ATTACKERs vehicles are open and exposed.

If its a matter of Budget and FW Objects to build a vehicle bay then you have to move it but just make sure you give the elites a means to take it down. That is the other risk. The "If you give a mouse a cookie" risk. I stand by my less is more mantra for most maps and people. If you give the spartans a Banshee then you have to give the elites X number of power weapons to take it down and then you have the give the spartans X number of weapons to counter THOSE weapons etc.

Overall I like the changes but would still like to get a playtest or at least see it in person.
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